How to Murmeltier

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catacyst
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How to Murmeltier

Post by catacyst » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:06 pm

So next on my list of Shinki to get is Murmeltier, and while I await her arrival, I'm doing some research into how she plays in Battle Rondo. I've fought very few Murmeltier in-game, so I'm a bit unsure of exactly what's up with her. From what I've gathered on the Wiki, she seems to have no redeemable qualities outside of an insane level of Attack.

My question is: What exactly are some of Murmeltier's strong or fine points, and what builds and mixes of CSCs can be used to counteract her, rather abundant, weaknesses?
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Re: How to Murmeltier

Post by MaximumBurst » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:09 pm

For sure, the best choice for Murm would be a defense build. I would say that for 150 levels, the stats should be distributed something like: LP20, SP30, Attack 30, Accuracy 35, Evasion 5, Defense 30. Evasion should be as low as possible. Ideally, it should be 0, but I just estimated 5 because you're going to evade some attacks along the line and it'll go up. For CSCs, Moonstone x3 would be best if you're shooting to get her to S-class for the first time. Of course, that's 150 GEM, and you probably don't have that yet, so of the basic CSCs, Ruby, Sapphire, and Topaz would probably work out okay. Using 3 Rubies might also be a fun thing to try as well

Now for some key notes about making a successful defense Shinki:
Since you can only Guard during "Wait" and "Pre-attack" phases, being caught during the "Move" phase totally defeats the purpose of a defense Shinki. For this reason, it is important to have weapons that cover as much of the 0-400 distance field as possible so that your Shinki doesn't have to move to attack. A key component of this is the Flying Saucer weapon that you can get from an achievement (lose 10 Official Battles) since it has a massive range of 150-400. Personally, for the 0-100 range, I use the Teacher Stick from the GEM shop. It has pretty good accuracy, and it can't be countered just in case I run into one of those types that use a Counter Skill build. To cover the leftover 50 distance, I use the Boomerang with its 100-200 range. If you're truly patient, it would be very wise to get Murm high range sense in all 3 ranges. Mastering all 3 ranges helps tremendously with accuracy and damage.

Another important part of a defense build are pieces of armor that have various Damage Resistance skills. The two most important ones are the アイゼンヒンダニス・ASシールド (Melee damage -50%; block all of your opponent's attacks and win) and the ユースティティア・AMシールド (Throwing damage -50%; get hit by 5 or more throwing attacks and win). There's also the シュタールカッツェ・ABシールド (Shooting damage -25%; clear 3 Journal Missions), Racoon Hat (Throwing damage -25%; Fukubiki rank 3 prize), and Fubuki/Mizuki's hand parts (Melee damage -25%; get Fubuki's from leveling her up). There's many others, too. It looks like with Murm's feet armor and rear parts alone give her 220 defense, so you definitely want to go with those. Murm's rear parts also come with a defense skill which will really come in handy.

The basic idea is to prevent as much damage as possible. As long as you can survive 10 turns, getting a Draw is better than losing.
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Re: How to Murmeltier

Post by catacyst » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:44 pm

Thanks as always MaximumBurst, but here's a few more questions:

1) Is the saucer's range enough to make it useful up to Rank S? They do not do very damage, but I guess that may be countered by Murm's massive attack, no? Also, any other range mixes of weapons would be nice to experiment with, though I think Maximum's ideas are pretty solid.

2) With her unparalleled weight cap, could she be a viable option for a high movement/sniper build? It seems like she would be able to carry a lot of equipment, so would her ability to wear a lot of high movement gear allow for this?

Also, slightly general questions:

3) I once heard someone complain and recommend not having a Shinki attempt to carry too many weapons of various ranges. Is this generally a bad idea, except for high defense builds of course? Why is this?

4) How exactly does one "master" the ranges? I know it has to do with AI development, but I'm still not entirely sure what that entails. Also, does mastering said ranges actually cause a change in a Shinki's accuracy?
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Re: How to Murmeltier

Post by MaximumBurst » Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:39 am

I knew I was going to have to do it sometime, but looks like it's time for the lecture about the all-important "Range Sense". :schmetterling:

The field is divided into 3 attack ranges: Close (0-100), Mid (100-200), and Long (200-400). Whenever your Shinki does an offensive action in any of these ranges, the game keeps track and counts it up. Based on the amount of actions in the different ranges, your Shinki's range sense will change. Pen-pen said this in another thread:
In one battle, Close 6, Mid 0, Long 0, with Praise = Close +1, Mid -0.5, Long - 0.5
In one battle, Close 4, Mid 1, Long 0, with Praise = Close +1, Mid +-0, Long -1
In one battle, Close 3, Mid 3, Long 0, with Praise = Close +0.5, Mid +0.5, Long -1
In one battle, Close 1, Mid 1, Long 1, with Praise = Close +-0, Mid +-0, Long +-0

...Once again, there is a part on the wiki says that "...as of Jan '10, now it does +1/-0.8, not +1/-1..." -- which means, Tri-range or semi-tri should be possible.
First of all, I have spent time, and can confirm the +1/-0.8 with my 3 Shinkis that have high sense in all 3 ranges.

Now, what is this "+1/-0.8"? Basically, there's a cap of +10 for each range. Let's say you do 10 missions using nothing but close-range attacks, and praise your Shinki after each one. Your Shinki's accuracy, attack, and evasion will be very good at close range because her close range sense is at +10. However, the other two ranges will be sitting at -4, so if you're attacked at those ranges or try to use a different weapon that falls in that range, the outcome won't be very good. You can see that if you rotate doing a mission using weapons/skills that fall only in one range, you can build up all ranges very slowly.

- Win a mission using only close range, and praise > Close: 1.0, Mid: -0.4, Long: -0.4
- Win a mission using only long range, and praise > Close: 0.6, Mid: -0.8, Long: 0.6
- Win a mission using only mid range, and praise > Close: 0.2, Mid: 0.2, Long: 0.2

Using this rotation, it would take about 150 battles to get a distribution of +10, +9.6, and +9.2. And you can see that continuing to rotate would just keep the same numbers, but put them in different places.

So if you think about a Shinki that specializes in only close range, it would be at +10, -10, -10, and all it would take would be some good mid and long range attacks to defeat it. Similarly, even a dual-range Shinki has a severe disadvantage if an opponent just so happens to attack in its weak range. People who spend a lot of money on SPT or just have a lot of Shinkis can most likely still be successful with a dual-range Shinki, but if you don't have the luxury of those then building good range sense is a great way to level the playing field. But again, 150 battles will take A LOT of time. It's all up to how patient you are. I think it only takes a dual-range Shinki about 35 battles to get ranges to +10, +9.6, and -10.
If you have an unused Maochao Battle Rondo code and don't plan on using it, please send me a PM! I'd gladly accept any other unused codes as well. :schmetterling:

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Re: How to Murmeltier

Post by MaximumBurst » Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:57 am

Now, I keep mentioning "Praise", so what about the other choices? What if you lose the battle?

Well, whether you win or lose, the effect of the choice you pick after battle will always have the same effect on range sense. Most Shinkis will lose affection if you praise them when they lose, but that's a different topic. So it's been said that praising will give a +1/-0.8. What about the other choices? Well:

Praise: +1/-0.8
- "すばらしいバトルだったぞ", "がんばったな、よしよし", and "よくやった、文句なしだ"

Scold: +0.8/-1
- "言わなきゃわからないのか", "やろ気はあるのが", and "内容に問題がありすきる"

Safety: +0/-0
- "お疲れ様、悪くはない結果だ", "次はもう少し頑張ろうな", and "まあまあだな、お疲れさん"

Apologize: +0/-0
- "自分が悪かった" (This will always be a possible choice if you lose or draw. It will never appear if you win.)

Also, I believe that using defense skills at different ranges doesn't affect range sense. For example, there's a mission where you can only use skills, and I had my Shinki just use a defense skill (because I thought I could get her to learn to block skills exclusively). I thought to check her ranges before and after praising her for using the shield, and nothing seemed to change. I'll admit that more testing probably needs to be done to confirm this.

Speaking of "checking ranges" you do this by checking the data log. For every turn, it should show what your accuracy is for your attack. As your range sense changes, this accuracy rating should also change accordingly. You'll also notice that your opponent's accuracy will change depending on your range sense as well, indicating changes in your Shinki's evasion.

I think it's pretty silly that Konami made the choice after battle such a crucial part of the game. One little click can affect: range sense, affection, and skill usage(?).
Last edited by MaximumBurst on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you have an unused Maochao Battle Rondo code and don't plan on using it, please send me a PM! I'd gladly accept any other unused codes as well. :schmetterling:

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Re: How to Murmeltier

Post by MaximumBurst » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:27 am

catacyst wrote:Thanks as always MaximumBurst, but here's a few more questions:

1) Is the saucer's range enough to make it useful up to Rank S? They do not do very damage, but I guess that may be countered by Murm's massive attack, no? Also, any other range mixes of weapons would be nice to experiment with, though I think Maximum's ideas are pretty solid.
Most people combine the saucers with a strong followup skill. You'll likely see people use 8 of the big missiles from the SPT shop. And yes, Murm's high attack ability should make those weak-looking plates hit pretty hard. You can try to have two gearsets with one using Murm's rear parts for pure defense, and one with Strarf's rear parts for her extremely powerful offensive skill "Demonish Claw". As I said, it's better to draw than to lose, so it's okay if you resort to pure defense in case you run into a Shinki who you think can stomp you.

Those two -50% damage shields I mentioned are Military and Mecha type. Luckily, you're going to have Murm's military parts and you have Strarf's mecha parts, so you can make a pretty decent defense set without "dissonance". "Dissonance" occurs when you equip 3 or more pieces of armor from 3 different types. The 無 type doesn't count towards this since it's the "non-type". I believe "Dissonance" lowers all stats by some unknown amount. Unfortunately, my defense Shinki has to have this if I want my defense build to work.
catacyst wrote:2) With her unparalleled weight cap, could she be a viable option for a high movement/sniper build? It seems like she would be able to carry a lot of equipment, so would her ability to wear a lot of high movement gear allow for this?
I think you might be a little confused about the amount of pieces that Shinkis can equip. All Shinkis are the same in this respect, and the amount of gear that a Shinki can equip is based on her class:

C-class: 10 pieces, 20 weight
B-class: 15 pieces, 30 weight
A-class: 20 pieces, 50 weight
S-class: 20 pieces, unlimited weight
EX-class: 20 pieces, unlimited weight

Perhaps you were looking at the "重装" stat where Murm has a "◎(70)"? I asked about this stat here quite a while ago, and I was told that it was related to knockback. It looks like the higher that stat is, the less your Shinki will get pushed back I think.
If you have an unused Maochao Battle Rondo code and don't plan on using it, please send me a PM! I'd gladly accept any other unused codes as well. :schmetterling:

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Re: How to Murmeltier

Post by Sword » Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:22 am

MaximumBurst wrote: First of all, I have spent time, and can confirm the +1/-0.8 with my 3 Shinkis that have high sense in all 3 ranges.

- Win a mission using only mid range, and praise > Close: 0.2, Mid: 0.2, Long: 0.2

Using this rotation, it would take about 150 battles to get a distribution of +10, +9.6, and +9.2.
Woot! Thanks for confirming this.

Um. How'd get to that '150 battles' number? 10/0.2 = 50...
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Re: How to Murmeltier

Post by MaximumBurst » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:43 am

Sword wrote:Um. How'd get to that '150 battles' number? 10/0.2 = 50...
There are 3 ranges to get to 10, so 50 x 3 = 150. So it should be exactly 150 battles if your Shinki is starting at 0, 0, 0 to get to 10, 9.6, 9.2. It's impossible to actually have 10 in all 3.

You can see calculations here: http://ameblo.jp/busousinnki-blog/theme ... 59596.html
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Re: How to Murmeltier

Post by catacyst » Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:31 pm

Oh my, this game just got exponentially more technical. I'm certainly glad you're around Maximum, or I'd be very, very lost.

So naturally you would choose to do missions since they don't level up any stats, correct? Does this mean that there are missions that focus solely on combat at each range, or am I going to have to make builds for my Shinki that confine them to combat at the given ranges?

Finally, will I have to readjust my range sense between battles?

Again, thank you MaximumBurst-sensei for your infinite wisdom.
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Re: How to Murmeltier

Post by MaximumBurst » Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:07 pm

catacyst wrote:Oh my, this game just got exponentially more technical. I'm certainly glad you're around Maximum, or I'd be very, very lost.

So naturally you would choose to do missions since they don't level up any stats, correct? Does this mean that there are missions that focus solely on combat at each range, or am I going to have to make builds for my Shinki that confine them to combat at the given ranges?

Finally, will I have to readjust my range sense between battles?

Again, thank you MaximumBurst-sensei for your infinite wisdom.
Right. Missions are the best place to work on range sense. Personally, I just made 3 separate gear sets that specialize in the each of the different ranges. You need to be absolutely sure that these specialized sets have no skills or weapons that might accidentally fall into the wrong range or else things might get messed up (though you could just pick a "Safety" choice once the battle ends).

I only found out about range sense once my Shinkis were all A-class, so I've been using the two A-class missions to work on mine. I used the first one (against Maochao) for close range, and then I used the second one (against Howling) for mid and long range. There's lots of other possible missions out there so long as your Shinkis fall under the right requirements. The first C-class mission against Arnval is the #1 choice for a new Shinki. It might be a bit hard to get long range done unless you have a lot of mobility, though.

I'm not sure what you mean about readjusting range sense between battles. If you're talking about winning an official battle with one range and being afraid to praise her because it'll mess everything up, then go with one of the safety choices. While actually building up your range senses, there should be plenty of opportunity to get affection up really high, so don't worry if picking safety choices doesn't give hearts or maybe causes your Shinki to lose hearts.
If you have an unused Maochao Battle Rondo code and don't plan on using it, please send me a PM! I'd gladly accept any other unused codes as well. :schmetterling:

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